A Spontaneous Moment: An Interview with Sonny Fortune
Sonny Fortune is getting better every day. The veteran reedman -- proficient
not just on his preferred alto saxophone, but also tenor, baritone,
soprano and flute -- has played with everyone from Trane to Miles, Roy
Ayers to Mongo Santamaria. Lately, though, Sonny’s been looking
inward: founding his own label, honing his skills as a composer, and
burning up stages as one half of the fiery Sonny Fortune-Rashied Ali
Duo. At sixty-five, Sonny is finding that critical acclaim is following
from his decision to go his own way, resist the lures and compromises
of the industry and play the music he yearns to.
It’s a decision he’s made before. A Philly-bred disciple
of Coltrane, and perhaps the horn player most deeply devoted to keeping
Trane’s musical legacy alive, Sonny’s versatility, chops
and improvisational genius have placed him in myriad musical contexts
and more than a few potential pigeonholes. As a member of Mongo’s
hugely successful early-seventies group, and again as a major-label
recording artist in the mid-seventies, Sonny has consistently chosen
to step away from situations in which financial rewards outweighed musical.
That’s how I got to know him in 1997: because he was out on the
road, doing what he loved. Sonny was touring as a long-standing off-and-on-again
member of the late Elvin Jones’ Jazz Machine (Sonny is perhaps
the only horn player who can claim both of Coltrane’s percussionists
as major collaborators), and I was touring as Elvin’s drum tech
as a means of researching my first novel. The on-stage exchange of energy
between these two musical titans -- no less than the comedic backstage
banter between these two old friends -- did more than anchor the band.
It was a glimpse at history. Sonny elicited from Elvin the kind of earth-shaking,
gorgeously expansive intensity one hears on those 1960s Coltrane recordings.
Very few musicians were capable of scaling such heights with Elvin,
traveling with him to such summits of sprit and swing. Sonny is one
of them.
He also has the uncanny knack of being on the uptown 2 train whenever
I am, and I don’t even live in New York anymore. It was through
one such Fortuitous encounter that I arranged to meet with Sonny at
his Upper West Side apartment; I’d never bothered to get his phone
number before, assuming that I’d simply run into him the next
time we both happened to be out with Elvin. Thus, the first half-hour
of our conversation was devoted to reminiscing about our recently departed
friend -- another musican who Sonny’s work now helps to keeps
alive. Then I drooled over Sonny’s vinyl for awhile. Eventually,
we rolled the tape.
Sonny, you and I traveled quite a bit together with Elvin Jones’
Jazz Machine. And one of the wonderful things about that band, to me,
was the breadth of age among the musicians. You had Elvin, in his seventies,
you in your sixties, and then cats in their forties, thirties and twenties.
It always strikes me how different the musical landscape must be for
those young guys today from what it was when you were coming up. From
what I’ve heard and read, it seems like cats of your generation
were playing all the time, all night, going from one spot to the next.
I wonder if you think it’s possible for today’s generation
to saturate themselves that fully -- not just in the music, but in what
it means to be a jazz musician.
A. I
don’t think there are as many outlets as there were. But when
I came along there weren’t as many outlets as there were before
me. I caught the tail end of a lot of clubs, and I felt like there weren’t
enough then. But one of the elements that came with my era is playing
a lot. I don’t mind playing a lot. A guy came up to me last week
in Boston, at one of my shows with Rashied, and said “I don’t
know why you enjoy this situation you’re in.”
Thinking so much blowing is exhuasting?
Right. But Rashied and I are playing as long as we choose. We’ll
play one tune for an hour. People, when they see us, they can’t
even believe it. Last week, I soloed an hour on one tune myself. I’m
not gonna hear what I want to on a computer. I’m not gonna get
what I want from writing something down. I’m not gonna get what
I want from listening to somebody. I get what I want from playing, and
the more I do it the happier I am. Jones was like that. I think that
was the thing that made him and Coltrane connect, because Coltrane was
like that. Sheezus Christ, was he like that! I think Elvin walked away
with that being a part of his psyche. That was a thing he and I shared.
He knew how I felt about music. I knew how he felt about music.
A young person might not necessarily have the outlets to develop that.
But are they instigating the places? I used to go get cats and we’d
go make places to play. We’d go in clubs where they didn’t
have music and play for nothin’. Anywhere, just to be playing.
If anything is missing in the young, it’s that. Number one, the
places in which to do that don’t exist. Number two, guys don’t
necessarily feel like that’s a priority. Guys say “I’m
getting on my Mac and do whatever, make a drum beat and download this
and that” and feel like they’re doing something. And maybe
they are. I don’t know; I can’t tell. But for me, as far
as music’s concerned—I’d rather be out there doing
it.
Your resume is like a who’s who of jazz and funk -- Elvin,
Miles, Mongo, Dizzy, Oliver Nelson, Leon Thomas, McCoy Tyner, Nat Adderley,
Roy Ayers, Buster Williams, Joe Chambers, Mtume. Is there anybody you
haven’t played with yet that you want to?
No. (laughs)
It’s great to be able to say that.
Rght now, I’m trying to create my own dynamics. I play a lot of
music, but I want to play it in my own situations. I’ve written
a number of tunes, and one thing I feel very proud about is my compositions—they
sound like they were written by different people.
What’s your process of composing like?
I just sit down and work my brains out. It’s very frustrating,
because very, very seldom does something come to me. I usually have
to sit down and work at it for a long time. I usually start out figuring
there’s nowhere I can get it, and it kind of comes. But I decided
recently -- when I left Elvin for the last time, which was about four,
five years ago -- that it was time for me to compile my compositions
and bring that object to the forefront.
What do you tend to listen to when you’re at home?
I don’t listen to music that much.
Is that right? So I can have those nine hundred records sitting
over there?
No (laughs). There’s no way in the world that you can have those
records. Nobody can have them. Matter of fact, this record right here
needs to be replaced because I made a mistake and left it on my receiver
one night and left the receiver on, and the receiver got so hot that
it warped the record. This is Charlie Parker at Massey Hall, and I don’t
know when I’ll listen to it, but I’ve got to get another
one because my records, man... y’know. My CDs are in my bedroom
and my albums are out here. I don’t listen to hardly any of them,
but if I need to check them out, they’re there. I’ve got
some great albums.
Do you have certain records you go to for certain reasons? Like,
for me personally, if I need a certain kind of inspiration I’ll
put on A Love Supreme. I might put on Impressions. Do you have albums
you always go back to to check out certain things?
I used to, but no more. I tell you man, right now, I’m into zeroing
in on myself. And that doesn’t mean that I listen to myself, because
I don’t. Usually, when I’m finished with a record, I’m
finished.
But you do tend to re-record some of your compositions.
I do from time to time, yes. But when I record them I don’t listen
to them to duplicate what I’ve done. Matter of fact, a CD just
came out of a Mongo Santamaria gig we did for the BBC around 1970. All
of us that were in the studio for that session, through the years we
often spoke of the recording because we thought it was a great one,
but Columbia didn’t want to release it because it didn’t
fall into the commercial genre that Mongo was in at that time. And when
I finally listened to it, I was blown away. I was like, “wow,
wow, wow.” But then after a while I got depressed, because I said
to myself, “You mean to tell me you’re still playing the
same way you were playing thirty five years ago?”
What made that record less commercial? Was it the length of the
tracks?
No, it was the the music. It was more authentic, more traditional as
opposed to the popular tunes we were doing at the time -- instrumental
versions to vocal tunes that were very popular. And we worked everywhere.
We worked Hollywood, we worked Vegas. I mean, we worked all the great
rooms. It was a heck of an experience for me.
Mongo was the first guy who really took you on the road, right?
Yeah. I have a high regard for Mongo. He gave me the opportunity to
see the world and he was a very gracious man, one of the few people
that paid musicans union scale, which is a rarity.
And your first New York gig was with Elvin. How did that come about?
I’m from Philadelphia and got started in music relatively late.
I was about 18, and I had already been married and had a family and
whatnot. SoI pursued music with all of that being taken into consideration
-- took it step by step. I worked around Philadelphia and then I decided
to try to come to New York and find out whether I could get something
going. My first week here, I had to work, I had a day job. I was into
all of that.
So the bass player Jymie Merritt told me about a gig, a jam session
on 52nd Street at Beefsteak Charley’s, and he told me to come
by there and sit in. When I got there the place was packed. And horn
players was against the wall. It was a small bandstand in a big club
and the horn players were lined up all the way around to the door, waiting
to sit in. I had to pay to get in, and then they made an announcement
that they had to discontinue the jam session to let the featured band
go on. And so it ended up that the ‘featured band’ was Joe
Henderson, Freddie Hubbard, Jane Getz and me! And the people had no
idea who I was. All I know is when I finished, the guy at the door gave
me my money back.
And that’s when I met Elvin. I had seen him many times, but that
was the first time I met him He told me he was working at Pukie’s
Pub and to come on down and sit in. I’d go down there and hang
out until like three, four o’clock in the morning. The guy I was
staying with would wake me up for my day job. I was dead, jack. Frank
Foster was working with Elvin at the time, and he had to take off to
write some music for Basie [Foster was the Basie Big Band’s musical
director], and would I be interested in taking his place. I said Sure,
of course. About a week or so later, I quit my day job -- before I even
knew for certain that I’d be able to keep the the job with Elvin.
You and Elvin had a beautiful kind of chemistry on the bandstand.
I always saw something special with Elvin and he knew that. I mean,
that’s why we went through what we went through. I was in and
out of that band for almost sixteen years. Strangely enough, I don’t
ever recall telling him about how Coltrane told me to play with him
if I could. I don’t know if you were with us at [the Londson club]
Ronnie Scott’s the last time I was in the band, but that was the
first time that Elvin -- you know how he used to introduce everyone
in the band -- he came out and said, ‘Ladies and gentlemen, me
and this guy, we go back a long ways. We’re kind of like brothers.”
I forget how he phrased it, but he referred to the fact that we were
both self-taught, and then he said that Coltrane had told him to come
search me out! That was the first time he ever mentioned that, and that
was only about five or six years ago.
You know, I was working with Elvin the night Coltrane died. We shared
some very profound moments. I’d worked with Elvin for about two,
three months, at Pukie’s Pub. It was a quartet: Billy Green, Wilbur
Little, Elvin and myself. We were working at this place six nights a
week. I remember that night very well. Nobody knew that Trane had died.
It was on a Sunday and I didn’t find out that he died until that
Monday when I went home to Philly. I ran into his cousin on the bus
and his cousin told me. I had just called Trane on Saturday, and Alice
told me he was asleep.
Did everybody know how sick he was?
No. The last time I saw him I saw him was somewhere around February.
I told him I was thinking about moving to New York and he wished me
luck and said that I would be fine and if I got the opportunity to play
with Elvin, take it. But he’d told me, not in that particular
conversation, but a few months earlier, that he couldn’t quite
figure out why he was so tired all the time. I don’t think he
was aware of what was going on. Medicine wasn’t quite as sophisticated
as it is now.
I know Trane was a big influence on your playing; you’ve even
dedicated a recent album to him. Was he also a mentor?
Well, yeah, more or less. I didn’t know him that well, but whenever
he came to town I’d say what I could to strike up a conversation
with him. I only played with him once, about a year before he died.
I would, as a young kid, try to figure out what he was playing, and
he definitely rattled my foundation. I never saw Charlie Parker, but
those who did kind of identify with that—they speak about it the
same way, and say you had to have seen it. I would say the same thing
about Trane -- to hear that sound at the moment for the first time.
I’m telling you, jack, I remember – I used to walk out the
club shaking my head. I was like, man, Jesus Christ, what are those
cats doin’? What are they doin’? What is this? It was brand
new, super-profound, way up front. And now, that sound is so commonplace;
people are somewhat perplexed as to why it was so mind blowing.. At
that particular time man, nobody, nobody, was playing what they were
playing.
Was Trane one of the people who made you decide to get into the
music at 18?
Well, when I started out I didn’t like Trane. He didn’t
hit me until –it was like on a Friday night (laughs).
It’s always on a Friday night.
He’d left Miles. He put out his first recording of My Favorite
Things—I think they’re using that now on some TV commercial.
I’ve heard it a couple of times, I’m trying to think what
the commercial is. But just to hear a phrase automatically makes you
-- it’s almost like self-hypnosis. It throws me into a state and
I remember hearing that recording. I don’t remember whose house,
but it was on a Friday night, and Saturday morning I went to the record
store and bought that record and played it until it turned brown and
never looked back from that point on.
I’d seen him many times before -- it was the concept of that record.
He had some different chords. Jones was playing some different music.
I saw him before Jones. I saw Trane playing with Miles and the quintet.
I saw him with Miles and Cannonball. I saw him when Pete La Roca was
in the band, when Steve Davis was in the band. I didn’t see him
when Billy Higgins was in the band, but when Elvin came to the band
that’s when the whole thing took another direction. Jones was
brand new, bad to the whole environment.
So from playing with Elvin you went to Mongo, and then to Miles?
No, I went from Mongo to McCoy Tyner. I worked with McCoy for about
three years, and I did three records with him. [Sahara, Song for My
Lady, and Song of the New World.] And then from McCoy I went to Buddy
Rich, and then from Buddy Rich I went to Miles.
That’s five very different bands right there. Clearly, you
were making a reputation as a very versatile cat.
Yeah, things were moving for me. If anything, things were moving too
fast. I was offered a Strata-East recording date in 1970, when I was
working with Mongo. But I felt like I wasn’t ready. I didn’t
have no music, so I waited.
Until 1975. And that Strata-East record, Long Before Our Mothers
Cried, is a classic. Do you own the masters? I’d love to see
that reissued.
Yeah, but I wouldn’t release that again because I’ve already
re-recorded all that music. I recorded the title track for Blue Note
-- I did three CDs with Blue Note in the ‘90s. They’re hard
to get now. Just about everything on that Strata-East record, I’ve
recorded on different albums. But I do have the masters -- that and
my new record are the only masters I have.
What was it like recording on Strata-East? I’d imagine you
had a lot of freedom, since it was a musican-owned label.
Yeah but I didn’t know nothing -- that was the beginning. I was
fumbling around in the darkness. In the liner notes of this Continuum CD I just did, I mentioned that this is the third attempt at doing the
album. Strata-East was the first. I did another in the ‘80s, but
I sold the master to a German label. This is the first time I took it
the whole way and what I experienced from this completely surpasses
anything that I’ve done. Simply because now I understand, I was
ready, the image I had in my head was clear.
How is it running your own label?
It’s a lot of work but it’s very fulfilling. When you’re
recording for another label, no matter how independent you try to get,
you’re still dealing with somebody else’s money. There’s
a feeling that I’ve gotten from recording my new CD – it’s
something I’ve never felt before in all the years I’ve been
doing what I’ve been doing. I feel like I’m involved in
something that’s mine. And I like it a whole lot. Not to say I
won’t record with another label, but if I record at another label
it’ll help serve this label here.
Do you want to extend the label to the point of putting out other
artists’ music?
I wouldn’t mind putting out somebody else’s music. The only
problem with that endeavor is I’m not ready to become a business
man. I’m still a player. I’m still excited about picking
up my horn and blowing.
It’s great to hear that, because I know there have been a
few times when you’ve had to deliberately redirect your career,
so as to be true to yourself musically. Can you talk about some of those
moments?
Well, the success of the music that Mongo was doing was something I
was concerned about – I didn’t want to get locked up in
that. Matter of fact, Creed Taylor [of CTI Records] was offering me—that
may be stretching it, but he certainly paid for me to come a long distance
to do the two recording dates I did with George Benson [Tell It
Like It Is and The Other Side of Abbey Road]. We were
in Las Vegas, and he paid for me to come to New York for the first date,
paid for my hotel room and everything. The other date, we were in Boston,
and he paid for me to come to New York.
So I was kind of like parallel to Grover Washington. I was moving in
that direction, but that wasn’t the direction I wanted to go.
Even Mongo and them used to get kind of pissed at me, because I used
to take all my records and my record player on the road, and my records
were not about them at all. It was about Eric [Dolphy] and Trane and
Miles, and that’s what I wanted to do. That’s what I came
to New York for.
By the time I worked with Miles, things were jumping for me pretty much.
My first major label recording was on A&M Horizon (1975), and people
even now are talking to me about that record. It got a lot of response,
a lot of exposure for me. And then I did another record with A&M
Horizon called (1976).
And then you jumped to Atlantic, a real powerhouse of a label, and
did Serengeti Minstrel in ‘77, Infinity Is in
‘78, and With Sound Reason in ’79.
The last two albums were commercial albums and that was when I started
getting very frustrated because the music business was changing and
the jazz musician was being asked to delve into the fusion. Those records,
especially the last record I did, With Sound Reason -- which
is where the name of my label, Sound Reason, comes from -- it’s
like a one-over-one smooth jazz recording. One of the problems with
the business of music is that the artistry of music has to weave its
way through that—that business -- if it’s going to survive.
Especially as the commercial expectations for jazz began to really
rise in the mid-to-late seventies.
Fusion was coming in. Jazz musicians were being forced to consider another
point of view, and a point of view that was more appealing to the masses.
All of us, with very few exceptions, those who weren’t established
and those who were established. Miles was one of them, Cannonball was
another one, I won’t say Ramsey Lewis because he was kind of established
as a commercial artist already, but Herbie Hancock—everybody delved
into this fusion, trying to find this common ground, so if you were
trying to get known, such was the case with me, trying to branch out
on your own, sooner or later it had to knock on your door.
That’s what happened with Atlantic. I was making great money.
I had a whole lot of money in the bank, but man, it was the most wasteful
time in my whole career. I was so frustrated. I couldn’t write
a note. The last two dates, the last day I didn’t even write a
composition. I felt like anything that I wrote wouldn’t contribute
to where I was going and I started being concerned about money and then
I found it to be a very, very, very weird kind of place. But it came
from the fact that I was kind of elevating in the business. So I made
a move.
How did that go down?
I just ran into [keyboardist] Larry Willis in Europe a couple of weeks
ago and I reminded him of this story, because it all came to a head
over a tune he wrote. He wasn’t on the record, but he was the
guy I went to to help me with this concept of fusing jazz and commercial.
He had worked with Blood, Sweat and Tears, so I wanted the jazz guy
who’d played with the rock band to give me something I could grab
ahold of. There’s a couple of tunes we did —I play them
now, but I don’t play them the way we recorded them. The irony
is that when I recorded these tunes, I omitted a lot of the tune because
of the endeavor that we were pursuing—if I had played all of the
tune it wouldn’t have worked as a commercial tune, so we took
a section of the tune to make it more commercial.
So there was a great tune that Larry had written on With Sound Reason,
but the guy at Atlantic -- not the producer, but my boss, the guy who
was overseer of me and the music -- told me he heard vocals on the tune
-- he wanted to add vocals. I said “man I don’t hear no
vocals.” And that was the end of me. I was so frustrated that
I went there prepared to make that statement.
You were looking for a way out?
I wasn’t looking for a way out -- but like I told some guys at
the record company, I ultimately gotta live with what I’m doing.
I’m trying to sell records just like you are trying to sell records,
but I’ve got to feel comfortable about this whole endeavor here.
I don’t want to go all the way over there to sell records. So
that’s what changed my whole career.
I’m trying to imagine what the vibe was like at those recording
sessions, because you had all these incredible musicians, but it seems
like nobody was playing what they wanted to play. Everybody was making
these compromises.
Well, I don’t know. When I did those dates, I went after guys
who were doing fusion music because I didn’t, and still don’t,
like jazz cats playing fusion. So I went after guys that were kinda
jazz-oriented but whose main bag was fusion, and tried to put myself
in the middle of it. I think there were some great dates. The drummer,
Steve Jordan, was a heck of a drummer. I just saw him this summer for
the first time in 25 years, working with Sonny Rollins at the Lincoln.
He was on David Letterman for years -- if you watch David Lettermen
in the ‘80s, he was there. He was the kind of cat who had a jazz
background but was playing fusion music. I think that’s what made
it work. Those guys, they weren’t as crazy as I am. You know,
there’s a whole lot of people who aren’t as crazy as I am
(laughs). I’m the guy that wants to play this crazy music.
At that time, were you playing in the clubs also?
That was another problem with the record label. They’d have me
in the studio, and you got the wa-wa and the synthesizer and the electric
bass and the guitars and all of this. And then people would come see
me in the club. and I got bass, piano and drums.
And an audience who bought your record, and expects you to play
that way live.
I said listen, if you all buy me the equipment, I’ll play it.
I wasn’t going to invest my money in all that, because it wasn’t
something I believed in.
Did you have a whole different group you were gigging with?
I did a few gigs with those studio guys, but those were high-end guys.
In those days record labels were paying out great bread. Every time
I went in the studio my salary went up and my advance went up, plus
I was getting paid for the record gig. The jazz musician doesn’t
get that any more.
I kind of gave up the pursuit of being a band leader. One of my frustrations
was that the guys I wanted to work with -- I’m talking about jazz
guys -- were always working in different situations, moving in and out
of bands. And there’s a question of having the money. And so the
bands I could afford to have, I wasn’t always satisfied with.
It was a very, very difficult task trying to keep a band that you felt
good about. Because I’ve always been about music. It hasn’t
been about “don’t you wanna be a bandleader, don’t
you wanna be popular, don’t you want to stand in the front?”
No, not necessarily. If the music is great, I’m there. 20, 30
years later, it’s still about that. That’s what kind of
put me back to working with Elvin as a sideman.
Tell me a little bit about Miles’ band. What years were you
there?
I was with the band
in ‘74 , and I did about four albums with Miles. [Agartha, Pangea, Big Fun and Get Up With It.] I’d
turned down an offer from Miles earlier, when I was with McCoy, but
by 1974 I was ready to do something exciting and new.
Was fusion a pressure thing with him, or was it where his vision was
taking him?
That’s a good question. I don’t know. My personal opinion
-- that I foresee is worth about a hill of beans, or a quarter of a
hill -- is as far as I’m concerned, when Coltrane died everybody
said “whew!” As far as the jazz world, that’s what
I believe. Because when Trane was alive, those who were in the front,
at the vanguard, were busy pursuing music. When John stepped out it
went in a lot of different directions, including Miles. I may get a
lot of heat for even making that statement, but that’s how I feel
about it.
Was Miles pressured? I don’t know. Miles said he wanted the crowds
Hendrix and those cats had -- twenty thousand people and whatnot. And
probably somewhere in Miles’ psyche he was saying “How in
the world can those cats be drawing those crowds when this music here
is as bad as it is?” Because there was no doubt that jazz was
stepping into some incredible frontiers. Whatever you could think of
was being played. But like art in general, it got swallowed up in the
business. But the business may be the result of the people. People get
caught up in an easier way. Nobody wants to do geometry or trigonometry—maybe
a little adding and subtracting. I don’t know if that’s
a good analogy.
Works for me.
Jazz is complicated—when I first heard it, I didn’t like
it. But there was something about it that forced me to embrace it because
I felt like it was a step above. It was something I had to evolve up
into, and I still recognize that worth in the music. So for the masses—that’s
asking a lot.
It can be appropriate to ask a musician why he plays music. There’s
many different directions, many different emphases. For me, the tradition
that I come from is called spontaneous improvisational music that swings.
That completes that whole package and puts a bow on top of it—that
swing puts a bow on top of it because there’s a lot of expressions
in music that don’t necessarily have that objective. I don’t
think there’s anything wrong with any other objective, until the
spontaneous improvisational guy starts leaning in another direction
-- and even he or she has that option if they feel comfortable -- but
when that other direction is taken because of money, well... I certainly
feel comfortable where I stand, and that’s all one can ask for.
One of the great things about this music here that I’m a part
of, the composition becomes something that you carry with you. It’s
only a vehicle to be spontaneous at the moment, all the time. Once I
play that melody—I’m playin’ it tonight like I didn’t
play last night, and tomorrow I’ll play it unlike the way played
tonight. And that’s the thing that really fulfills me in this
music—I don’t see no fun in getting up out of my bed today
and reliving what I did yesterday. For me the fun is today is brand
new. So I equate this music with that kind of reality.